From owner-cse575-fa07-list@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Thu Sep 20 18:00:01 2007 Received: from ares.cse.buffalo.edu (ares.cse.buffalo.edu [128.205.32.79]) by castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU (8.13.6/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l8KM01mK017122 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:00:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from front2.acsu.buffalo.edu (upfront.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.4.140]) by ares.cse.buffalo.edu (8.13.8/8.13.6) with SMTP id l8KLwDfk011713 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 24784 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2007 21:58:13 -0000 Received: from mailscan8.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.55) by front2.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 20 Sep 2007 21:58:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 16679 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2007 21:58:11 -0000 Received: from deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.57) by front1.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 20 Sep 2007 21:58:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 14389 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2007 21:58:10 -0000 Received: from listserv.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 20 Sep 2007 21:58:10 -0000 Received: by LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id 2503982 for CSE575-FA07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:58:10 -0400 Delivered-To: CSE575-FA07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Received: (qmail 6945 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2007 21:48:09 -0000 Received: from mailscan3.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.6.135) by listserv.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 20 Sep 2007 21:48:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 23805 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2007 21:48:09 -0000 Received: from email5.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.119) by smtp3.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 20 Sep 2007 21:48:09 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Origin: 128.205.153.26 X-Mailer: AtMail 4.61 - 128.205.153.26 - omukhtar@buffalo.edu X-UB-Relay: (email5.acsu.buffalo.edu) X-PM-EL-Spam-Prob: : 7% Message-ID: <35790.1190324889@buffalo.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:48:09 -0400 Reply-To: omukhtar@buffalo.edu Sender: Introduction to Cognitive Science From: Omar Mukhtar Subject: Conversion + Human and Machine Perception + Slave/Master To: CSE575-FA07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Precedence: list List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Owner: List-Archive: X-UB-Relay: (email5.acsu.buffalo.edu) X-PM-EL-Spam-Prob: : 7% X-DCC-Buffalo.EDU-Metrics: castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU 1336; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on ares.cse.buffalo.edu X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.2/4355/Thu Sep 20 13:09:53 2007 on ares.cse.buffalo.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU id l8KM01mK017122 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: NotJunk X-UID: 16040 Content-Length: 2927 Hi, I had the following questions so i thought i would them out there. Conversion Question: My first question is how does one model the following "conversion from one system of belief(religion) to another" in a computer. Since different people "seem" to have the capacity to change based on the conversions across different cultures, upbringing(moralally speaking), race, education level how does/would a computer handle it. Human and Machine Perception: Before asking the question i considered toning down the question but then i thought you(people reading) might not be clear what i meant to ask so aplologies if i was wrong in not toning down the question. A human "sees"(youtube video) a human being killed. A computer "sees"(in a data stream) the same video. (the data stream and seeing can be seen to be 2 different interpretations of the same thing. Much like saying "are you and me seeing the same red?") Now most humans will have a certain perception. There will be "some degree of revulsion". Some might vomit, other might see it and then think it was wrong and so on and some will think it was alright. So how does a computer do this. I also think that this kind of cross-cultural test is a better type of "turing-test" because it factors in how humans seem to percive things. Most of our "morals" seem to come from "hearing"(parents telling us what not to do) or "seeing"(seeing a person convicted or being fined) AND THEN understanding it in our brains (in this case the eyes come before the brain and ears before the brain). The reason this test is hard(and therefore good turing test) is that the notion of "human" is so wide. "Humans" can be tall,short,male,female,youg.old. When we go to another country we see more humnas but humans are not defined by any particular thing. Killing is also something that is not so definable e.g. euthansia,stabbing,lethal injection and other ways. It(the video test) also addresses educational levels and other problems. If one talked to a computer on art you can have computers that might know everything about art or the computer can model what a certain type of person thinks about art(and thus cheat so that it seems to be a human). But at the same time there are lots of people who dont know art and might say "i dont know art" and so a computer can say "i dont know art" and be more human! Slave/Master: When i read Minsky definition of AI(Computational Cognition) "The science of making machines do things that would require intelligence if done by humans" and Margaret Boden "The use of computer programs and programming techniques to cast light on the principles of intelligence in general and human thought in particular." it seems that minksy has the definition because "humans" created(programmed) machines. (Master thinking) and the second defintion is more that they(machines) can be used to create intelligence. (Slave thinking) bye. From owner-cse575-fa07-list@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Fri Sep 21 10:40:05 2007 Received: from ares.cse.buffalo.edu (ares.cse.buffalo.edu [128.205.32.79]) by castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU (8.13.6/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l8LEe5Y0018360 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from front2.acsu.buffalo.edu (upfront.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.4.140]) by ares.cse.buffalo.edu (8.13.8/8.13.6) with SMTP id l8LEds1N023615 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:39:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22390 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2007 14:39:54 -0000 Received: from mailscan8.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.55) by front2.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 21 Sep 2007 14:39:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 259 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2007 14:39:54 -0000 Received: from deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.57) by front1.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 21 Sep 2007 14:39:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 23195 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2007 14:39:51 -0000 Received: from listserv.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 21 Sep 2007 14:39:51 -0000 Received: by LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id 2535689 for CSE575-FA07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:39:51 -0400 Delivered-To: CSE575-FA07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Received: (qmail 19633 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2007 14:39:48 -0000 Received: from mailscan1.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.6.133) by listserv.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 21 Sep 2007 14:39:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 7076 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2007 14:39:47 -0000 Received: from castor.cse.buffalo.edu (128.205.32.14) by smtp4.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 21 Sep 2007 14:39:47 -0000 Received: from castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU (rapaport@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU (8.13.6/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l8LEdlLv018343 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rapaport@localhost) by castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU (8.13.6/8.12.9/Submit) id l8LEdlT4018342 for CSE575-FA07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:39:47 -0400 (EDT) X-UB-Relay: (castor.cse.buffalo.edu) X-PM-EL-Spam-Prob: X: 18% Message-ID: <200709211439.l8LEdlT4018342@castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:39:47 -0400 Reply-To: "William J. Rapaport" Sender: Introduction to Cognitive Science From: "William J. Rapaport" Subject: Re: Conversion + Human and Machine Perception + Slave/Master To: CSE575-FA07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Precedence: list List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Owner: List-Archive: X-UB-Relay: (castor.cse.buffalo.edu) X-PM-EL-Spam-Prob: X: 18% X-DCC-Buffalo.EDU-Metrics: castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU 1335; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,SPOOF_OURI autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on ares.cse.buffalo.edu X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.2/4357/Fri Sep 21 05:55:46 2007 on ares.cse.buffalo.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: R Content-Length: 2837 | Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 17:48:09 -0400 | From: Omar Mukhtar | Subject: Conversion + Human and Machine Perception + Slave/Master | | My first question is how does one model the following | | "conversion from one system of belief(religion) to another" | | in a computer. In order to "model" something computationally, you need first to state very precisely that which you want to model. So you'd need to specify exactly what you mean by "conversion" and by "system of belief". This, in turn, would probably require a great deal of reading on the nature of belief systems and conversion. But as a quick reply, one might be able to model a belief system by a set of the beliefs that constitute the "system", and then conversion could be modeled as changes to that set of beliefs. | Since different people "seem" to have the capacity to change based on the | conversions across different cultures, upbringing(moralally speaking), race, | education level how does/would a computer handle it. I would suppose that all of these things would somehow have to be modeled or represented among the beliefs that would eventually be changed. | A human "sees"(youtube video) a human being killed. | A computer "sees"(in a data stream) the same video. | | (the data stream and seeing can be seen to be 2 different interpretations of the | same thing. Much like saying "are you and me seeing the same red?") | | Now most humans will have a certain perception. There will be "some degree of | revulsion". Some might vomit, other might see it and then think it was wrong and | so on and some will think it was alright. | | So how does a computer do this. This might be an even harder thing to model, simply because vision systems are nowhere near the ability to perceive, much less understand, such complex and culture-dependent events. It's even difficult for humns: For example, there's a well-known psychological experiment in which a human subject is shown a silent film of a person swimming in the ocean, waving his arms, and yelling (though, don't forget, it's a silent film). Subjects are asked whether the person is having fun or drowning. There's no way to tell. | I also think that this kind of cross-cultural test is a better type of | "turing-test" because it factors in how humans seem to percive things. Many people have suggested that a purely linguistic Turing test isn't sufficient, that a "total Turing test" would involve other sensory and communicative modalities. For more on this, link to the following websites: http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/harnad/Papers/Harnad/harnad92.turing.html http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/turing-test/ http://www.springerlink.com.gate.lib.buffalo.edu/content/h51pp233m1h732p0/fulltext.pdf [the last one requires you to be on a buffalo.edu machine] From owner-cse575-fa07-list@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Sat Sep 22 13:46:57 2007 Received: from ares.cse.buffalo.edu (ares.cse.buffalo.edu [128.205.32.79]) by castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU (8.13.6/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l8MHkvf4001422 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 13:46:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from front2.acsu.buffalo.edu (upfront.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.4.140]) by ares.cse.buffalo.edu (8.13.8/8.13.6) with SMTP id l8MHknus004676 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 13:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11567 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2007 17:46:49 -0000 Received: from mailscan4.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.6.136) by front2.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 22 Sep 2007 17:46:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 11347 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2007 17:46:48 -0000 Received: from defer.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.58) by front2.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 22 Sep 2007 17:46:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 13057 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2007 17:46:46 -0000 Received: from listserv.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by defer.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 22 Sep 2007 17:46:46 -0000 Received: by LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id 2563334 for CSE575-FA07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 13:46:46 -0400 Delivered-To: CSE575-FA07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Received: (qmail 13396 invoked from network); 22 Sep 2007 17:46:46 -0000 Received: from mailscan4.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.6.136) by listserv.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 22 Sep 2007 17:46:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 21877 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Sep 2007 17:46:45 -0000 References: <35790.1190324889@buffalo.edu> X-Mailer: University at Buffalo WebMail Cyrusoft SilkyMail v1.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 128.205.56.203 X-UB-Relay: (internal) X-PM-EL-Spam-Prob: XX: 26% Message-ID: <1190483205.46f55505e3e7c@mail4.buffalo.edu> Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 13:46:45 -0400 Reply-To: "Youngjin 'Sung' Kang" Sender: Introduction to Cognitive Science From: "Youngjin 'Sung' Kang" Subject: Re: Conversion + Human and Machine Perception + Slave/Master To: CSE575-FA07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <35790.1190324889@buffalo.edu> Precedence: list List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Owner: List-Archive: X-UB-Relay: (defer.acsu.buffalo.edu) X-PM-EL-Spam-Prob: XX: 26% X-DCC-Buffalo.EDU-Metrics: castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU 1336; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on ares.cse.buffalo.edu X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.90.2/4359/Sat Sep 22 11:57:21 2007 on ares.cse.buffalo.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: R Content-Length: 5358 Hi Omar.. You point out very broad sense of problem of human cognition. Also these cultural analysis you put on question is also my interest. In my view of human cognition and intelligence, in reality humams are much less computationally reasonable than obediently follow the rule and moreal culturally inherit. If you are so reasonable to think everything matematically, it also from what you have lerned from your society on how you to react the thing in your environment. These cultural basis of determination is mostly learned from parents and society from the birth (in the form of formal or informal education) through using all perception (see and hear) and become strict axiom before doing something. Usually, the people don't know why you are natually doing something, however they believe it is good for them, thus It means it is good for the society, then it maintain social harmoney and structure. Interestingly, people usually omit syntax through which outcome results, but they merely see the outcome alone (possibly good), so that cultural shift of sigle huamn is possible. There are not one single reason which interpret every culture, but you know what you do can make the people happy and the society peaceful. This is really MORE SEMANTIC THAN SYNTAX. I think most human like AI seems to be immitational machine. This AI collect all human behaviors and follow most popural and common thoughts and behaviors. More interestingly this AI can change itself accoring to the environment in which he is lacated. Also this AIs could form certain kind mob and community according to where they have been so far. The debate between AI and the persuasion of one AI on the other AI seemngly possible. Here politic may arise among machines. AI is getting closer to human..Isn't it?? Youngjin 'Sung' Kang Cultural Anthropology yjkang@buffalo.edu 716-310-9692 Academic Interrest : Psycholocial, mental cognitive aspect of culture, symbol, perception, representation. visual image, films, memories, reflection, projection. comparartive analysis of cultures. Buddhism culture. life cycle, various concepts of life and death etc.. Quoting Omar Mukhtar : > Hi, > > I had the following questions so i thought i would them out there. > > Conversion Question: > > My first question is how does one model the following > > "conversion from one system of belief(religion) to another" > > in a computer. > > Since different people "seem" to have the capacity to change based on > the > conversions across different cultures, upbringing(moralally > speaking), race, > education level how does/would a computer handle it. > > Human and Machine Perception: > > Before asking the question i considered toning down the question but > then i > thought you(people reading) might not be clear what i meant to ask so > aplol> ogies > if i was wrong in not toning down the question. > > A human "sees"(youtube video) a human being killed. > A computer "sees"(in a data stream) the same video. > > (the data stream and seeing can be seen to be 2 different > interpretations o> f the > same thing. Much like saying "are you and me seeing the same red?") > > Now most humans will have a certain perception. There will be "some > degree > of > revulsion". Some might vomit, other might see it and then think it > was wron> g and > so on and some will think it was alright. > > So how does a computer do this. > > I also think that this kind of cross-cultural test is a better type > of > "turing-test" because it factors in how humans seem to percive > things. Most> of > our "morals" seem to come from "hearing"(parents telling us what not > to do)> or > "seeing"(seeing a person convicted or being fined) AND THEN > understanding i> t in > our brains (in this case the eyes come before the brain and ears > before the> brain). > > The reason this test is hard(and therefore good turing test) is that > the no> tion > of "human" is so wide. "Humans" can be > tall,short,male,female,youg.old. Whe> n we > go to another country we see more humnas but humans are not defined > by any > particular thing. Killing is also something that is not so definable > e.g. > euthansia,stabbing,lethal injection and other ways. > > It(the video test) also addresses educational levels and other > problems. If> one > talked to a computer on art you can have computers that might know > everythi> ng > about art or the computer can model what a certain type of person > thinks ab> out > art(and thus cheat so that it seems to be a human). But at the same > time th> ere > are lots of people who dont know art and might say "i dont know art" > and so> a > computer can say "i dont know art" and be more human! > > Slave/Master: > > When i read Minsky definition of AI(Computational Cognition) > > "The science of making machines do things that would require > intelligence i> f done > by humans" > > and Margaret Boden > > "The use of computer programs and programming techniques to cast > light on t> he > principles of intelligence in general and human thought in > particular." > > it seems that minksy has the definition because "humans" > created(programmed) > machines. (Master thinking) > and > the second defintion is more that they(machines) can be used to > create > intelligence. (Slave thinking) > > bye. > >