From owner-cse584-sp07-list@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mon Feb 26 19:22:43 2007 Received: from ares.cse.buffalo.edu (ares.cse.Buffalo.EDU [128.205.32.79]) by castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU (8.13.6/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l1R0Mh2C006135 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from front2.acsu.buffalo.edu (coldfront.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.6.89]) by ares.cse.buffalo.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l1R0Mc25037809 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:22:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 17972 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2007 00:22:38 -0000 Received: from mailscan3.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.6.135) by front2.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 27 Feb 2007 00:22:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 17891 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2007 00:22:38 -0000 Received: from deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.57) by front2.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 27 Feb 2007 00:22:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 27653 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2007 00:22:36 -0000 Received: from listserv.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 27 Feb 2007 00:22:36 -0000 Received: by LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id 3543747 for CSE584-SP07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:22:36 -0500 Delivered-To: CSE584-SP07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Received: (qmail 4012 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2007 00:22:36 -0000 Received: from mailscan7.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.6.158) by listserv.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 27 Feb 2007 00:22:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 19754 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2007 00:22:34 -0000 Received: from hadar.cse.buffalo.edu (128.205.32.1) by smtp1.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 27 Feb 2007 00:22:34 -0000 Received: from hadar.cse.Buffalo.EDU (ag33@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hadar.cse.Buffalo.EDU (8.13.6/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l1R0MXtd013788 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from ag33@localhost) by hadar.cse.Buffalo.EDU (8.13.6/8.12.9/Submit) id l1R0MXw8013786; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:22:33 -0500 (EST) References: <45E362D1.7070202@buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UB-Relay: (hadar.cse.buffalo.edu) X-PM-EL-Spam-Prob: : 7% Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:22:33 -0500 Reply-To: Albert Goldfain Sender: "Philosophy of Computer Science, Spring 2007" From: Albert Goldfain Subject: Re: TM encoding schemes and a loss of generality To: CSE584-SP07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <45E362D1.7070202@buffalo.edu> Precedence: list List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Owner: List-Archive: X-UB-Relay: (hadar.cse.buffalo.edu) X-DCC-Buffalo.EDU-Metrics: castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU 1029; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.7 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on ares.cse.buffalo.edu X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.6/2657/Mon Feb 26 17:57:11 2007 on ares.cse.buffalo.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: R Content-Length: 3950 On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Mark Jensen wrote: > Albert Goldfain wrote: > > I believe the human brain suffers from the same "hard-wiredness". If > > you replace the "encoding scheme" with the presentation of our > > "perceptual input" it is pretty clear that UTM_HumanBrain *expects* > > patterns of neuron firings as "input" rather than cats, mice, and > > cheese :) > > > > Albert > > > Is the input really firing neurons or rather is it the environmental > stimulus that is the input that in turn gets "encoded" into a neuronal > propagation that terminates at (in?) the brain? Although, the neurons > that are coming from the sensory organs in the body are external to the > brain and therefore not part of the brain directly. Where do the firing > neurons that are input end and the UTM_HumanBrain machine that computes > with this input begin? > It seems that there is a distinct separation between the input and the > device (or function) that operates on it when considering other types of > computers. Although, maybe this is my misunderstanding and is a direst > result of looking at functions and computing devices as machines rather > than "descriptions?" or "abstractions?" of processes. Could these > processes be considered to be one-in-the-same as the input they work with? > Am I wrong in thinking that in a TM, the symbols that are used to > determine states and operations are different and distinct from the > symbols that are used as i/o (1 & 0)? In which case, the input is > separate and distinct from the process. In the brain the distinction > seems to get muddled. Although, I am far from a neuroscientist or > cognitive psychologist and don't pretend to understand the specifics of > how sensory input gets processed by the brain. Maybe, it is possible > that the computation begins immediately at perception and proceeds > through differing levels of categorization, chunking, and pattern > matching until ... understanding? I don't know. Or ... until a semantics > can be applied to the event. > > Just some thoughts that popped up reading that last paragraph. > -mark Those are some good points Mark! Of course, my saying that the brain expects patterns of neuron firings as input is greatly oversimplifying things. Clearly the encoding of auditory input is bound to be very different than the visual stimulus coming from the rods and cones in our retinas. On the general question "Where does the 'input' for the human brain begin?" (input being whatever the human brain might "compute" with) consider the following scenario: Let's suppose I memorize John Doe's telephone number 716-555-1234. No matter how this number is stored in my head, it is clear i can use it in a computation...e.g., in a procedure for calling John Doe, or telling someone else that phone number. Now suppose store John Doe's number in my cell phone and I forget the number completely, but can still retrieve it by scrolling to 'John Doe' in my cell phone contact list (btw...i think this happens to most people in the cell phone age...I would be hard pressed to remember more than 6 telephone numbers :)). Notice I can *still* compute with the number, but now I have to go to an external source to get it...i.e., there is a very real sense in which my memory is augmented by the cell phone (even though my brain is made of different stuff and works in a different way). The theory of extended cognition reexamines (and I believe successfully refutes) the claim that the border of cognition is equivalent to the border of our brains (or even our whole body). You may want to look at the following (originally recommended to me by Dr. Rapaport :)) Clark, Andy and Chalmers, David (1998), "The Extended Mind", Analysis 58(1): 7-19. Hutchins, Edwin (1995), Cognition in the Wild, (Cambridge: MIT Press). There may be an interesting term paper topic regarding the nature of what counts as the input for a computation...and where is it. Albert From owner-cse584-sp07-list@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Mon Feb 26 21:06:01 2007 Received: from ares.cse.buffalo.edu (ares.cse.Buffalo.EDU [128.205.32.79]) by castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU (8.13.6/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l1R261DJ009988 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from front1.acsu.buffalo.edu (warmfront.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.6.88]) by ares.cse.buffalo.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l1R25vbl042652 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 21:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 7629 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2007 01:59:17 -0000 Received: from mailscan3.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.6.135) by front1.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 27 Feb 2007 01:59:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 19879 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2007 01:59:17 -0000 Received: from deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.57) by front2.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 27 Feb 2007 01:59:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 14950 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2007 01:59:03 -0000 Received: from listserv.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 27 Feb 2007 01:59:03 -0000 Received: by LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 14.5) with spool id 3545297 for CSE584-SP07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:59:03 -0500 Delivered-To: CSE584-SP07-LIST@listserv.buffalo.edu Received: (qmail 14270 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2007 01:47:57 -0000 Received: from mailscan7.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.6.158) by listserv.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 27 Feb 2007 01:47:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 22270 invoked from network); 27 Feb 2007 01:47:56 -0000 Received: from pollux.cse.buffalo.edu (128.205.35.2) by smtp2.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 27 Feb 2007 01:47:56 -0000 Received: from pollux.cse.buffalo.edu (mwk3@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pollux.cse.buffalo.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l1R1luxX014842 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:47:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mwk3@localhost) by pollux.cse.buffalo.edu (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.8/Submit) id l1R1ltXm014841; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:47:55 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UB-Relay: (pollux.cse.buffalo.edu) X-PM-EL-Spam-Prob: : 7% Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:47:55 -0500 Reply-To: Michael W Kandefer Sender: "Philosophy of Computer Science, Spring 2007" From: Michael W Kandefer To: CSE584-SP07-LIST@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU Precedence: list List-Help: , List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Owner: List-Archive: X-UB-Relay: (pollux.cse.buffalo.edu) X-DCC-Buffalo.EDU-Metrics: castor.cse.Buffalo.EDU 1336; Body=0 Fuz1=0 Fuz2=0 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,MISSING_SUBJECT autolearn=no version=3.1.7 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on ares.cse.buffalo.edu X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.6/2657/Mon Feb 26 17:57:11 2007 on ares.cse.buffalo.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: NotJunk $NotJunk X-UID: 14332 Content-Length: 2629 In response to Albert on extended cognition... I wouldn't go so far as to claim extended cognition refutes the position that cognition is limited to our bodies as one must still visualize the phone number before starting a procedure that involves the number in question. Current theories on human memory [1] would place the number in your working memory after attending to the visual stimuli the cell phone "presents"* to you. If an individual has no means to acquire data about the external world, then extended cognition fails. This would seem to place the importance in the "extended" cognition system on our bodies, more specifically, our ability to recognize data as it is presented to us in these augmenting devices. I agree that there is a larger system at work here, but I wouldn't claim a cell phone is part of our memory or cognition, rather a tool to place sought information into our working memories. Furthermore, external information comes from a variety of sources, most importantly (in my opinion), other cognitive beings. By sharing the previous information with you, am I now part of your cognition? I'd claim this is not the case. My thoughts expressed as English words in this email are read and interpreted by you (and the rest of our audience). The keyword is ' interpreted'. My sense of a word's meaning may differ from yours [2] and a standard assumption by the receiver of these words is that I'm using the same meaning, until there is some form of communication breakdown [3]. By "extending" your cognition to include my own would seem to open a variety of contradictions in your belief base. * - I use the word 'presents' loosely. The cell phone makes no cognitive actions in conjunction with your own. Rather you must first remember your cell phone has John Doe's telephone number, recall the method for finding the information, and then parse the telephone number text on the screen. Mike References ---------------- [1] - Wang, Y., and Laird, J.E. 2006. Integrating Semantic Memory into a Cognitive Architecture. p.3. http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/soar/sitemaker/docs/pubs/smem_tech.pdf [2] - Frege, Gottlob. 1892. On Sense and Reference. [3] - Alistair E. Campbell and Stuart C. Shapiro, Algorithms for Ontological Mediation. In S. Harabagiu, Ed., Usage of WordNet in Natural Language Processing Systems: Proceedings of the Workshop, COLING-ACL, New Brunswick, NJ, 1998, 102-107. http://www.cse.buffalo.edu/~shapiro/Papers/camsha98.pdf -------------------------------------------------------- Michael Kandefer University at Buffalo mwk3@cse.buffalo.edu